26 October 1999

Condega, Nicaragua

Questions by Melissa Ferrari, Ms. Magazine

Interview and translation by

Helen Shears, Development Worker ICD/CIIR (UK)

and

Margarita Suarez, Coordinator, Condega Homemakers Project

ACE: Today we have -- how many? -- 3 up there on the construction site ... Luz Marina, Nery, Teresa. Then in the carpentry workshop, Angelika, Adriana, Elia, Aracely, me... So 8. Tomorrow, 12 because I´m going to contract more. And Lilliam [administrator] and Helen [development worker]. The numbers vary with the amount of work at the time. We’ve peaked at 25, though we are probably not going to have that many again. 6 women make up the nucleus of the group, and the number varies with the amount of construction work and furniture production. We employ on a temporary basis the women whom we have trained, which also includes electricians and plumbers.

ACE: It is our intention that the titles of the houses go to women. We don’t know if all of them are the "heads" of their households, but we prefer that they be the owners which gives them more power to negotiate. Men can always say, "I’ll kick you out of my house and get another woman," and they use this power to blackmail women. So while some of the women are the heads of their families, our priority has been to identify activists, leaders of barrios and communities, women politically aligned with us, and single mothers: women who otherwise have little or no other opportunities. We are giving them the power to own property. They probably never thought they would be home owners, much less have access to property. The majority are all single women, "officially"- (society views women who have a boyfriend differently from those who are married). The possibilities of being home owners for men and women are not the same.

ACE: Good question. I was the one who introduced an ideological element. For the others it was a matter of survival. They formed the group because it gave them access to resources, to solidarity. The notion of empowerment has always been an issue for the group, though it wasn’t the reason they originally got together. This is the most difficult part. It’s complicated.

ACE: It’s hard to say -- and it would be arrogant to say -- that we have produced other groups, but our presence definitely influences women collectively and as individuals. Our work demystifies the non-traditional trades and opens the minds of women in the community. One example is Hacinta, who has recently worked on other reconstruction projects as one of the only women alongside male builders and laborers. She has probably felt more encouraged to carry on as she sees us working nearby, as we are visible, setting an example. Women feel they can be more daring. The social impact of our work is changing people’s attitudes. It’s no longer such a strange thing to see women working on site. It’s become more "normal" in our community. We are recognized for our work.

In relation to other groups, we contribute to women’s work in the community in general: we are a reference point. Specifically we have trained and supported a group in Matagalpa, and they are currently employed. The ideological part is the most revolutionary part of our work. Our contribution to the development of the Network of Women in Condega has been ideological, and they always mention us to new women as an concrete example of putting ideas into practice. We have had teachers and high school graduates in our carpentry and computer courses; many women have come through our project.

ACE: Some are new and some are involved in or are leaders in community work through other organizations. All women who we work with are going through a process -- changing their life attitudes. We are all the synthesis of the work of the feminists who came before us. Women with social presence make a difference for other women by what they do. They aren’t necessarily all "feminists" but they are leaders, transgressive women. We are also creating a lesbian force, supporting women in the process of coming out, being lesbian.

ACE: Yes, we have data regarding enormous changes. I haven’t the figures off the top of my head -- this year has been exceptional due to the amount of work there has been -- but women’s income has increased and we have been able to employ many women. But how do you measure the gender gap? If you come up with a formula, please share it with us!

ACE: Actually, we have encountered more resistance from women. The men are one difficulty. But the resistance in the minds of women is more difficult. If we overcome this tendency in how we, as women, are socially constructed, then we can leap to other levels. If we can do this individually and collectively we can confront the world. Women’s fear and mystification regarding non-traditional trades are profound. This myth is based upon the lie that these kinds of jobs are very difficult, and women are excluded. Therefore men have an advantage over women, but actually their power is false.

The more time that I am in the trades, I understand more, and the work becomes demystified. "This work is very difficult" -- this notion is like a sand castle. It makes a big impression, but it’s actually very fragile. It’s made out to be like something from another planet.

We do both. The best way to learn is in the process of doing. Training and construction -- for the local women and the volunteers who have come, it’s been the same. The British brigade (over half of whom were skilled women) was very successful, as there was a great feeling of exchange, teaching and training. An inseparable process. If you don’t teach you don’t learn.

ACE: We have a lot of dreams: we would like to set up an international center for training in non-traditional trades. And make exchanges. We want to enter into the competitive market, which is difficult. It’s another world.

ACE: There is a need for consciousness raising, awareness, and support for projects of economic empowerment for women. Without this we can’t talk about autonomy. There are many successful individuals here but it is very hard to achieve this collectively. We have to criticize the roles of financial organizations which support projects which keep women down, in traditional roles -- which is all part of neo-liberal world politics.

ACE: I don’t think this is a direct result of our project -- it has been exacerbated by the work. I’m frightened, as the atmosphere is a hostile environment. Usually the economy is managed by men; men have it in their power. Our project at the moment has resources: money, infrastructure, machines, workshop, transport, etc. More than most other local institutions and organizations, including the local Sandinista council. But in our case, we are women managing all this. Nobody says anything, but I can feel the jealousy, and it’s dangerous because we could get trapped. For example there was a conflict among the management committee of a new housing project for old people when we were awarded the contract. There are women on that committee who fight to get our work recognized and accepted.

Our relationship with the builder to whom we subcontract has been interesting. The relationship has changed as we now have the resources and experience to be able to negotiate with him. Many years ago, we began working with him in order to be able to train a few women. But now we work alongside him, managing a large construction project, employing many people.

As for the local council, we had to fight to get the land donated to us for the post-Mitch reconstruction effort. When they saw that we had access to funds, they wanted to reneg on their initial promise to donate the land.

The price I pay is that I have a bad reputation. Everywhere I go I have to fight for what we want. I have learned to navigate in a man’s world, questioning their knowledge and playing their game. I am from here and I know my community, I have known them nearly all their lives. So my bad reputation is actually good for dealing with my enemies because they respect me out of fear.

ACE: We don’t have specific plans in Nicaragua at the moment, but we are open. We are planning and have begun to create a Central American network in non-traditional trades. Already we’ve had an exchange with a group in El Salvador, where we did some training. We also have a contact in Honduras, and hope to be able to visit groups there. It’s not so remote, actually, it’s real.

ACE: As I’ve mentioned before, we are creating a space for women to transgress their gender roles, demystifying the non-traditional trades, enabling and empowering women. Women feel as though there is an open door, they have license to work. Our work is more notorious and less out of the ordinary, which is enabling customs and attitudes to change.

ACE: I am a product of the feminists who came before me, predecessors in Nicaragua and around the world. I am not a finished product; I am continually in a process of construction and deconstruction. I am taking a more active role in the transformation of women. Perhaps ideally tomorrow more women will join in. What really motivated me before was just to help women, but every day my position becomes more and more radical towards giving power to women. My personal contribution is to give back to other women what I learn. It’s all part of history. I am a product of society, particularly of the feminist struggle, and that in itself has given me power. And while we are making history, we are prolonging our power.

ACE: Women’s lives have changed in general -- everyone who comes through the project, including the international volunteers. But there are two women in particular, both from rural communities, whose lives have changed radically. For example, Nery, a mother of six in her early 40s, married for 20 years and separated, a leader in her community, former tailor, has been a carpenter for 2 years and now has built her own house, and is learning to train other women in construction. Her whole life has changed; she now has a lot more self-esteem.

Angelika is 15, took an introductory carpentry course at our workshop. Shortly after she left her community to work with us, and she attends high school on Saturdays. She works as a carpenter during the week and lives in the dormitory at the workshop. She is now the manager of the storeroom and is eager to learn anything and everything: welding, computers, handicrafts, electric work...

For these two women in particular, they have changed so radically that they could not go back to their previous lives, even if they wanted to.

There are other issues as well, for example sexuality. We support women who are coming out as lesbians, which has also created conflicts within the group. Nevertheless some women have felt empowered enough to come out to their families, and they find a way to live in the community amidst all the gossip and disapproval.

Of women who have left the group, some are still working on construction. So although they have left our collective, we feel this is a big achievement for them to be able to continue their work in non-traditional trades.

ACE: My enemies respect me out of fear. They recognize me because I have power. That’s a very patriarchal value that enables me to negotiate with men. There is a hierarchy of power. Social power means negotiating power. We have to be able to move in that world. That’s what men do. Resources and knowledge -- somebody who understands the threads of power. How to lie, how to manipulate, how to manage the psychological force of power. How to create the appearance that you know everything. Men tend to exaggerate -- "I have 30 years of experience" -- while women tend to devalue themselves -- "I have very little experience". By accepting the lies, we contribute to the patriarchal order. Every day I become more and more intolerant.

One of my former political enemies is now part of a large organization that supports women’s development, particularly in the rural areas, and in recent years we have become closer, especially because of the reconstruction work. They have become our clients. They want their products to be made by women.

But on the other hand there is another local women’s organization with whom we are close ideologically, but in practice we feel we don’t have their support.

ACE: Our misery existed before Mitch. The hurricane merely made it more apparent. Values and anti-values contributed to this. For example it gave some people social opportunities like housing, food, etc., while others became opportunists, taking advantage of the situation. Some people were just left in the gutter. For example one farm which had a lot of fertile land has been left with nothing, only stones. This has been for a middle-aged woman a very hard blow. In general for campesinos, losing land is worse than losing their houses, because you can replace a house, but not the land. For poor people, there has been a lot of misfortune. And the irony is that the relief efforts have managed to create an atmosphere of paternalism, which in social terms is very damaging.

There lacks a vision in social development strategies by local and national governments. The organizations who do work at the grass roots level, their work is very evident. We are working very hard in reconstruction projects, changing women’s lives. Maybe some don’t even realize yet how much their lives have changed.

In the new barrio, our houses stand as a visible sign of women’s ability and ownership of property.

ACE: The most exciting moment was just after Mitch when we were able to communicate with the rest of the world after 15 days. It made us realize what a big thing we’d just survived. Usually the natural disasters occur on the coasts, but here in the north of the country we didn’t realize how much damage there was until this moment.

The most scary moment was when I thought we were going to disappear. I’d had a dream beforehand that my daughter was in my arms and the water was coming down from the mountains in a big wave. And I felt powerless. It was a premonition. My mother said, "Amanda said this was going to happen." I also had a bad dream before the electoral defeat in 1990. These two moments in my life have really struck me.

Hope: This is very hard, especially in relation to the local powers that be, that don’t have any vision or willingness to be imaginative... There was a moment of expectation after Mitch that didn’t last long, when we felt that we were joining forces with the local council and other institutions. But it was very short. Now we carry on in the same shit. We are promoting a way of criticizing the status quo through our work. We are constructing and confronting the system. This is part of our work in the women’s movement in Nicaragua, particularly in the Comité Nacional Feminista [formed in 1992, separated in 1995 and reformed after Mitch to renew solidarity and political cooperation among feminists, 20-30 members representing different groups nationally].